Is it not still the rule within our church, that a man holding COG credentials, cannot pastor another denominational church, and continue to hold credentials? If that has changed, when did it change?

And if it is still black and white in the minute book as a rule, then is Free Chapel still a Congregational Holiness church? If not, is it COG now?

And if the rule still exists, and Free Chapel is still Congregational Holiness, then why is this rule being overlooked?

This has nothing to do with whomever the person is. I have no issue with Brother Franklin, at all…..my issue is, I was under the impression we had a regulation regarding this type of pastorate. I’m asking for enlightenment about our Minutes, not Brother Franklin. Can’t anyone fill me in?

The man is class and he loves our church. Let’s not lose perspective. If the ministers by large majority want him on the EC, then embrace the reality and let’s see what happens…

His father, Billy Franklin, was a very successful pastor, State Council member and EHM Director in Eastern NC. Jentzen’s maternal grandfather, Brother Stone, a devout COG layman from the town of Middlesex, NC, fathered and raised 26 godly children the last time I knew, maybe more than that now, from two wives, the first of whom died after giving birth to 14 of them. As afar a I know all of Brother Stone’s kids are COG members. Jentzen’s widowed Aunt Vickie married a COG widower, R. Lamar Vest.

I remember Jentzen–skillfully playing a Saxophone as a pre-teenaged boy–his younger brother and another young man powerfully ministering as a trio in ENC campmeeting services and people flowing to the altar under a powerful move of the Holy Spirit.

I also recall Jentzen preaching, during the mid-80’s, the afternoon services in the Florida Campmeeting two years in a row at the invitation of YCE Director, T. David Sustar and drawing bigger crowds than the morning featured Bible Teachers. It squelched the argument that afternoon services couldn’t thrive in today’s campmeetings.

Jentzen Franklin has very obviously had a powerfull annointing and gifting upon his life since his childhood and I hate to hear anyone say anything different. If he was brought back into the COG in a most unorthodox way, it is not his fault. Neither is it Jentzen’s fault if things were not done decently and in order in his appointment to the California church.

I, personally, am glad to have him back and I never want to even appear to have a jealous spirit over someone else’s obvious success.

I believe he is credit to the COG generally and to the EC18 in particular.

After the music portion of the service, he played Brother McGuire’s message about our Identity as a church…the entire message.

I was encouraged and stirred tonight. Yes, I’m still concerned and prayerful about our church on many fronts. I’m a Classical Pentecostal, and our church is becoming less of that….and I have issues with governance and regulatory aspects of our church….and nothing is wrong with respectful discussion and even disagreement.

But I was encouraged…that from what I saw, there is still a desire on many levels for us to stay the unique and special group God raised us up to be. To be uniquely, special within this world. I saw a desire to find out who we are, a church where strong men still weep for lost souls.

I do believe that integrity is important, and if we have adopted regulations and rules, we should follow them by the letter to the T, including credentials and pastoring other denom’s churches.

But I have more hope tonight, than I have in a long time…and it’s a hope that there is a place in this great church still for me as a credentialled ministry.

I just felt that was the best note to end my discourse on this topic and thread.

There is no emotion detectors in the written word, therefore what you may interpret as an inappropriate tone, truly isn’t. That’s a shortcoming of the written word at times.

However, I would have no issue with my members responding to me in anger if or in a aggressive rebuke if I failed to walk within the minute book and the governance of our church and local body.

I’m talking about rules, because that’s the issue. You can talk about grace and mercy all you like, and those are fitting when they are appropriate in the discussion, but we’re not talking about someone’s soul, or a salvation experience or a sin issue, we’re talking about the rules of our church being violated. Therefore, the only appropriate reference is to the letter of the rules. Government of an ecclesiastical body isn’t them same as dealing with someone’s soul, your comparing apples and oranges.

And as far as God’s will…you made my point. Yes, all things do work together for good to THEM THAT LOVE THE LORD AND ARE THE CALLED……the inference in that scripture is that the decision of their free will has opened them up to God’s Divine Will.

The only things that will happen no matter what in reference to God’s will are matters of Scriptural Prophecy….but all others are left to our yielding to His direction and power. Oh yes, the Holy Ghost is very powerful, but He is a gentleman. And He will not force himself on any man, or denomination. And if God cannot find vessels in our denomination willing to be used as He sees fit, He’ll move on to other denoms and bodies that are willing.

Sister, what you sense is not hurt, it’s grieving. I’m grieved that we are no longer Holiness, I’m grieved that we are no longer putting the little preacher and little church at the top of our priorities, and that we seem to be more like the world and other denoms every day. Why should we even exist if there isn’t something special about us that makes us different?

I believe there are spiritual issues within our denom, for sure…but this dialogue has nothing to do with that…..my issue in this particular thread, with this particular appointment is a lack of respect for the General Assembly and Minutes that we as COG members say will govern the business of our church.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

No, it’s not God’s will that man should die without Him, but that doesn’t mean that God quits and gives up because one chose not to serve. Even though God’s will isn’t perfectly followed in every way, the purpose behind the power of His Spirit is to perpetually guide and steer us back to that Will moment to moment, fall after fall.

~~It’s all about the Rules.~~ The rules, the rules, the rules… and where does Grace and Mercy fit?

First, prove to me that the COG rules / government are based completely on Scripture and therefore flawless.

Second, even if they were based upon Scripture and flawless, I’ll show you some Pharisees who prided themselves on strictly abiding by those laws and a Christ who tried to minister to them but was slaughtered by them instead – which still brought about the Will of God.

Am I excusing and taking lightly that perhaps the ‘rules’ were violated? No, absolutely not. There are two points I’d like to make.

1. Since we really can’t say our structure is fully founded upon Scriptural example, we must first recognize that it will constantly fall, the same as the governments of the OT. That realization will help us “accept the things we can not change, change the things we can change, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

2. If the system is flawed, we are to work together through the power of the Holy Spirit to bring about ‘the better way.’ If you’re saying that

~~And as far as God’s will being done no matter what? That isn’t Biblical.~~

means that God isn’t working at all times to empower us to do His perfect will despite our shortcomings, then you underestimate the power of the Holy Ghost that resides in the thousands of men and women across this denomination to empower them to vote according to His will for this time and this place.

In the Pharisees’ opinion, Jesus was constantly in violation of the law, but He’s God. But our rules and laws are not perfect truth and flawless as was the Holy Scripture that Jesus was accused of violating, so where does that put our rules / regulations?

If the International General Council (all the Ordained Presbyters) who elected someone in who is in fact in violation of the rules, perhaps not only should the act itself be examined but the rule that brought about the violation.

I’m going to cut through the jargon and say what I want to say.

I wholeheartedly agree that if the system is flawed, it needs to be fixed. Here’s the heart of my message: I don’t deny that there’s not problems. As a lay person it would be more encouraging to me so see ministers on this blog passing back and forth solutions to problems and exchanging prayers that God would guide us than the rantings and complaints that have been demonstrated so far (understanding that not all are guilty).

Please ponder this question with a sincere heart:

Would you want your lay persons speaking of your actions, wrong or not, in the same manner that you have demonstrated towards our COG leadership in general? Wrong or not, mistake or not, I have been grieved to read these posts – not that there are not problems that need resolve, but the manner with which you have spoken out.

We can not expect leadership to exemplify traits such as integrity, trust, character that we don’t hold ourselves to. You’re complaints are valid, but the method in which they are made, is what hurts my heart for this denomination. Yes, you are hurt, yes, you feel wronged, I don’t discredit that or degrade that in any form. We lay people need to see you as leaders respond to adversity with the same character, trust, and integrity that you require for headquarters.

Thank you Bro. Tim. I really needed to see and hear your sincere heart past all this dialogue.

~~Its not always pretty, but, if we will humble ourselves and pray, be open and truthful, a lot of these incidences can be seen as points of growth instead of points of division.~~

Thank you for your positive note: “can be seen as points of growth.”

God bless and God keep all our hearts in check as we minister on the levels that God has appointed for this time.
Bro. Tom, perhaps one day I’ll have the opportunity to vote you onto the Council of 18.

It’s about the rules. I’m COG, therefore I should abide by the letter to the Minute Book, and so should everyone else that tooks those vows that I took when I joined as a member of the COG. I stood in front of a church that accepted my membership and vowed to walk according to our structure and rules…..why are they now able to be bent?

And as far as God’s will being done no matter what? That isn’t Biblical. There are many times that God’s perfect will is not done, because of the human interferance of free will. There are many times that things happen in this world, including people going to hell, that are not the will of God, but he has given us free will to decide.

Why did so many ministers vote him in? Celebrity status has allot to do with it, and the fact that so many enjoy his preaching, ministry etc. This horrible practice that we have of using non COG ministers in our Winterfests, and Youth Camps, and Campmeetings has made him a very popular person within our denom.

I guarantee you that if you ran TD Jakes name, he’d get voted in as well, even though his doctrine is slippery, lifestyle is extravagant, and he’s far from what I’d want as a representative to the world of what the COG is.

I will be more than happy to give you some background information that will spread some light about my perspective.

I am from a family of ministers. My entire life has been spent traveling night after night, doing homework in the backseat of a car, under a pew, and sometimes sleeping under that pew until the regular service or revival services were dismissed, only to get in the car and curl up in a back seat for another 2, 3, sometimes 4 hour drive home so that Granddaddy could go to his job the next day down at the plant. All of us, Granddaddy, Granny, their three children and all of us grandchildren; God and the ministry was priority over everything else in my family. The thought of losing one soul because of our lack of anything on our part was unthinkable and unacceptable. My Granddaddy’s passion for the lost soul rose above any other priority on the planet. Church work always came first and my Granddaddy kept faith that by his putting the work of the Lord first in his life, God would provide favor for him in the eyes of his employer. My granddaddy finally retired from that secular job and just when we thought he’d be able to rest, he was asked to pastor another church in addition to what he was already doing 3.5 hours away.

As a teenager, Sunday mornings were not spent lounging around the house waiting for service to start. I was up sometimes at 4am waiting for Granddaddy to come by and pick me up so we could drive to the other church. “Granddaddy, why are we leaving so early?” “So-and-so hasn’t been in church lately and he’s been drinking again and I need to visit with him before we get to the church.” The family wanted me to ride with Granddaddy because he had a tendency to fall asleep at the wheel after services. He wouldn’t let me drive though. Perhaps that’s where I learned the most about the power of prayer. 

My two uncles today follow in those footsteps and pastor two of the smallest churches in the PH denomination. (I was born and raised Pentecostal Holiness denomination.) It’s a really big deal when 25 people show up for service in one of them and then it’s a really really big deal for 10 to be present in the other. My uncles are in their 50’s pastoring small churches and working hard labor jobs for a contractor company within the same plant from which my granddaddy retired. Both of them with severe diabetes and declining health, study the Word of God and minister from the pulpit as if there were 3000+ in attendance. These small flocks of sheep are their number one priority and they continue to carry the same priority that my Granddaddy did while he was alive. “You should never put a price on the gospel or the soul of a man.”

At my granddaddy’s funeral, visitor after visitor after visitor, seemed like the line would never stop, spoke these words: “I was saved under your granddaddy’s ministry, he meant a lot to me.” “I was filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost under your Granddaddy; he was a real minister of the gospel.” “Your granddaddy is the reason I’m a child of God today, you’re Granddaddy was an awesome minister.” And then this one that came from someone unsaved, “There’s no preacher I know that can compare to your granddaddy. He’s the only preacher I know that could preach and conviction would grip your heart and you sit in the pew with your heart about to rip out your throat.” This guy served as a pallbearer at both his and my grandmother’s funeral. Even though he still isn’t saved, his respect for them goes unmatched.

Am I singing a sad song? Absolutely not, but you’ll have to forgive me if I’m not impressed by yours . If there is one thing that my Granddaddy drove home and made sure his family knew, it was that being a minister of the gospel is a PRIVILEGE and an HONOR and should always be treated as such. My Granddaddy instilled in us a respect for our leaders (who according to the Word are appointed by God whether it be vote, appointment – or celebrity for that matter), whether they be right or wrong. He taught us that God would hold us accountable for all our words and He would hold the leaders accountable for their words, actions, and leadership.

It’s not about rank and position. My Granddaddy, grieved in his heart towards the ministers in his denomination who were competing for rank and position, prayed continuously for them whose focus had deviated from their true calling. He prayed that these ministers would move their focus from position, power, and authority to the dying soul that would spend an eternity in hell. I pray the same thing if that is indeed the truth.

Now, to answer the question about JF: first, I would need to know if in fact JF is in violation of our policies. Second, if he is, why is it then your peers voted him in despite them? Why wouldn’t your complaint (legitimately rooted) be geared toward them rather than JF himself?

Ultimately we are responsible for how we act. If JF belongs there or not, if the COG voted him there or not, if Dr. Culpepper fixes the money or not, God is the one ultimately responsible for the appointment of leadership. While on one hand we must do what we can for the denomination (body) to the degree that God sees fit, its more important to keep our attitudes and heart priorities in check and in the right place until God opens that door of opportunity.

I agree that the people need to see real ministers with real problems and not ‘front’ that the everything in our lives is perfect. However, the same is true for the opposite. Airing dirty laundry for the world to see and smell is equally wrong. Finding the balance in the middle where we don’t front but we minister as imperfect persons serving a perfect God, teaching that life happens but miracles do to is the more appropriate approach. Why would the world want our God if our God couldn’t prove to them through us that even though we have problems, we serve the God that fixes, heals, and restores?

Here’s hoping that if my granddaddy were allowed to read this from heaven, that he would be proud that I love my rich heritage and that I stand for the same principles that he and my grandmother so diligently taught me.

Here’s hoping that rather than finding my comments confrontational or condemning, you will find them thought provoking to bring self reflection.

I’m sure this blog is not a full representation of your attitudes in general but only a fraction of your true character surrounding only a particular subject matter. I’m truly hoping that what I’ve read here is not a full disclosure of your complete attitude towards our denomination. From my perspective it sounds like ministers who are more concerned with “who gets to wear what badge” than the souls around them. I have no doubt that you minister your hearts out Sunday after Sunday, week after week, working a full time job and somehow the people around you expect you to be on call 24/7 – I know, I’ve lived it. I want to encourage you not to allow your agreement or disagreement with what has transpired in our leadership to remove your focus from the highest calling above all: to call a soul to repentance. I trust that if you keep that your priority, at some point down the road, God will see fit to position and empower you to implement change whether locally or internationally according to His perfect will.

God bless.