Filed under: church of god, missional church, posters
Travis Johnson- Tom Sterbens
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- Raymond Culpepper
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- Jerry Lawson
- Bill Isaacs
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Perfect and to the point. LOL
I just want to know how you got pictures of Steve Wright’s highschool yearbook and his wrestling photos!!!
dang.
The concept of a unified budget appeals to me because of what it offers–unity in mission. The dual purpose financial structure of the church has always been a problem and it continues to lend itself to a lack of continuity. In the local church, all funds are in one account (or should be) and available to the pastor and leadership for the overall mission/vision of the pastor and church. The YOuth Fund is not a mission unto itself but is part of the larger vision for all members of the family. The same should be true of our church internationally. World Missions is part of the overall mission, not a mission unto itself.
Since the General Assembly has already authorized a Divisional Approach to organizational structure (about 2 assemblies ago), then the unified budget makes sense to me, in light of the likelihood of the percentage cut.
Something that many people may not know is that much of the tithe fund is already appropriated by the international church. For example, 15% of the TOT is already designated for Aged Ministers and that comes out first and is set aside for funding the old pension plan. And as the number of dependent retired ministers in the old plan (Not MRP), the accumulating increase of available funds has already been designated by the Assembly to be returned to pastors personal retirement beginning this August 31. There are other designations for Education, Department budgets, etc. so that discretionary spending is very limited. Thus the PLW plan from a few years ago which was Covenant Teams which grouped states/territories together for shared funding in emergencies. In Louisiana, we have greatly benefited from this strategy and the help which has come periodically from the 13 “covenant” partners we have. The Covenant Team funding is a combination of TOT percentages (I think about 9%) and contributions by local states/territories. We tithe our contributions back to the Covenant Team to help other states in our group. Everybody contributes and it has worked well.
With the motion to change the present financial structure and if it passes, I think the Executive Council will have to redo all this and so the unified budget makes sense to me. It is misinformation that reduction of the 2 1/2% to World Missions will impact funding local missionaries. Much of the budget for world missions is internal and administrative. They are justifiably fighting to protect their turf and that is understandable. A unified budget as it will be proposed allows for world missions to get as much administrative funding as they presently get and grow with any potential growth of the church. The reduction would not adversely affect our mission force in the field, in my opinion.
Bill,
Have you honestly talked with any missionary on the field about how the 2.5% would affect the work of the denomination in their part of the world? Sending out missionaries are only one part of what World Missions does around the world.
Tom
To me this issue, like most of the issues we are currently facing, comes down to a trust issue. If we trust our leaders, we trust them to budget the funds appropriately. If we don’t trust our leaders, there is no way we can oversee them from our local churches.
I cannot imagine leading a local church where my staff was selected for me by the membership and where nearly 1/2 of budget was appropriated for me without my input. Actually, when you think about all of the problems facing the COG, there is enough blame to go around for all of us. Maybe our leaders have not done the best with what they have been entrusted, but maybe we have not given them the best product to work with.
Jerry,
I agree that one of the major problems facing our church is the issue of trust. There is a lack of trust from the ministers to the leadership, and from the leadership to the ministers. Though I have questions about how money is being spend as do most, I would say that it is hard to carry out a vision if 1/2 your budget is tied up. I believe as member we have to give our leaders the tools to be successful and then hold them accountable to doing what is right with what they have been entrusted with. As a pastor I know that I can only be successful if I am given the resources to lead.
Bill,
Is the TOT cut tied to the Unified Budget? If it is, people are going to be ticked and disappointed beyond belief.
This issue absolutely divided the denomination and left people rocked and feeling abused and manipulated. Please tell me they aren’t involved in the same motion.
Wow. This is hugely disappointing. COG bureaucracy in one hand. The mission of the church in the other. When it comes to budget cuts, which one have we deemed less important? Unfortunate. Extremely unfortunate.
Surely it cannot be the conclusion that the other areas of ministry which have been vital parts of evangelism and ministerial training such as YCE, Women, MWOA, Compassion, Education, Church Planting, etc. are not part of the mission of the church? There is a need for balance and it does not seem that such a cut 33% of total funds can be done while allowing one department to evade cuts while requiring others (rightly so) to reduce their operations/salaries/positions.
We cannot have it both ways from my perspective. Significant cuts of 20% have been done in all departments including World Missions to prepare for the reductions. The rest of the cuts are going to be brutal but doable. From the meetings I’ve been in, there is a great and genuine spirit to work in the goal of getting more funds back to the local church. it is important to me that you and others understand there is no “us/them” in the meetings I’m attending. Even World Missions personnel have shown courageous leadership in preparing to do their part. The local church is the focus of this rearrangement of funding. Great care and I believe good leadership is going on by our leaders. My humble suggestion is let’s see what the proposal looks like before jumping to any conclusions which might not prove out. If they do, there will be plenty of time for….
Just my thoughts…
It’s one thing to have budget cuts go across the board – that every department shares takes a cut. But that’s not the same thing as a unified budget. Those are two different issues.
But let’s wait until the actual proposal / agenda comes out. Then we’ll know what to debate.
Steve Parrish is just jealous because he lost to me in High School. Steve, are you looking for a Sumo rematch?
Bill,
I am perplexed. If the WM dept receives 2.5% of the tithes for administrative and other costs, why would they need to take a 20% cut like the other departments that are funded by the 5% that comes into IHQ? What am I missing?
I do agree that they are a tremendous group of people with a couple of great leaders (Vaughn & Leroy).
Keith
Steve Wright, I am jealous only of the fact that you have hair. While most of your high school years are somewhat fuzzy for certain unmentionable reasons, you and I never wrestled in high school. My opponents were all hospitalized shortly thereafter, and best I can tell, you can still walk. Besides, this is a serious thread about 12% of money that affects 33% percent of an undisclosed portion of 82% of the population living 20% beneath the acceptable level while appearing 27% more muscular than you. This isn’t ACTS. Don’t be hijacking the man’s serious discussion!!!
Dear Steve Parrish,
While I concur that this is a serious discussion I must stand my ground and insist that we meet at the GA and have a match to settle this once and for all. I would advise however that you contact the DMV for a new DL because your picture will not match how you will look afterwards.
Being connected with Missions I’ve been listening to this discussion for a while now. I’ve been under the impression that Missions is looked at as a cash cow because of the 2.5%. Many in Missions are afraid of administrative costs being taken from their accounts and in an age when itinerating is not as cost efficient nor as effective as it used to be, they are very concerned about these changes.
My in-laws have already faced the cuts. They have had their missionary status changed without warning to reduce their benefits and reduce their availability to funds which they had already raised.
I was recently asked to consider dropping my missionary status in order to free up funds in our account for the department to use in other areas. I’ve been able to maintain my status, but I may have to scale down plans instead of continuing to save for the larger original goal.
Going the way that is currently being promoted by certain members of the Exec Com scares the crud out of me. The departments other than missions do not oversee the salaries and benefits of all those scattered ministries trying to survive under their portfolios. YCE does not employ all the youth pastors, youth directors, children’s ministers etc. Evangelism does not employ all evangelists. BUT World Missions DOES employ its missionaries and ministers abroad as well as the administrative staff.
I know there is no easy answer, and I know that someone has to make the hard decisions. I just hope the decisions we are going to be looking at in August will be will be fair and equitable for all.
Great discussion. Seems to me that ‘change’ of some sort is coming irregardless at this point. Does the CoG have a future?
BTW, I love how this discussion developed out of a post that had no text other than the tag on the photo.
The last time Steve Parrish got in a wrestling match he nearly busted his sternum. I had to listen to him wimper every time he coughed in the office for weeks!
Please don’t wrestle Steve. We all concur: YOU’VE STILL GOT IT!
I will wrestle you Steve, but I must insist that you wear shorts as opposed to your favored sumo thong. I have convictions against wresting any man while he is wearing a g-string! At your age, we should probably set the periods at 30-45 seconds, have paramedics on hand, and make sure there is a supply of oxygen in your corner.
In regards to the budget… the days of separate checkbooks in an individual ministry for sub-ministries should be over! In fact, they should never started in the first place. It creates a power struggle and a divided vision. We see that in local churches with checkbooks for women’s ministry, missions and whatever, and we see that in our organization now. It was a mistake to start with that will only get worse with time. It must be corrected. The last Assembly validates my point. There should be one checkbook with assigned budgets flowing from that single checkbook. While people will be injured in the correction of this error, it is critical so that we move forward in a unified direction and that means a unified budget.
Let’s not forget, 100% of every check written to a specific missionary will still make it to the intended destination.
I just want to know as a minister who did not attend the last General Assembly why was this issue not soved then? Is this a devisive issue as it seems to be why not study it some more or accept the wilkl of the Assemby for a little while longer if needs be. Also, as a side question was there any changes in the bylaws this time sense the 90 day limit has expired?
So is the unified budget and the cut on the TOT the same?
I mean are they going to be on the same Referendum?
Steve Parrish,
I’m speechless. I can’t believe you think you can take me. I’ve decided to send my 9 year old son in my place. I don’t have time to mess with child’s play. I will instruct him to go easy on you. It should make for good youth camp footage. If he doesn’t want to take on such an easy match then I guess I could step in for what I consider a cake walk.
[...] it does raise a few questions that we can discuss while we’re waiting to find out exactly how the unified budget goes down and what the rest of the agenda looks like. Seeing that we are past the 90 day mark on prior [...]
If trust is an issue, why doesn’t the church join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability?
Just sayin’ …
Jack,
If an Ordained Bishop pastoring the largest church in Alabama can’t get a full copy of the budget/audit, what makes you think our Executive Committee would willingly turn over a copy of the books to the ECFA? Other than that though, I think you have a good suggestion.
Welcome aboard.
FYI
After the 2006 debacle in Indianapolis, Dr. Baker gave Virginia ministers their first financial report in anyones memory! It was thorough and honest. It’s amazing how many, rumors, suspicions and doubts were put to rest! Cleveland should take note.
I also would like to see more accountability. Like what Dr. Baker did. But what do we do if they would give us a report and the rumors kept going. Maybe then we should confront those who are spreading rumors. Just a thought.
Chad, you asked:
Absolutely. I’ve confronted people who started rumors about me. It wasn’t pleasant. But, it was the right thing to do.
Concerning the published budgets, one thing I’m absolutely certain of is that when Jack looked at the budget from Virginia or if he re-examined it, is that he saw the Evangelism and Home Missions Budget was spent on items other than “new field work and in the case of an emergency, small church assistance.”
Since the General Assembly, the highest governing body of the COG, mandates that those funds be spent on only two initiatives, that is problematic for every single state and region in the USA. Those
rumorsfacts aren’t going away until those practices are changed.Our credibility and integrity are on the line. It looks like our response is to further assault budgets for mission like mission is some kind of luxury add-on in an overly-blinged out pimp ride…unfortunate and embarrassing.
we have a policy in our church – designated money goes to the place as designated by the giver. we have no microscopic text at the bottom of giving envelopes that says “the pastor and elders have the right to redirect money as needed.” we don’t have it because we don’t do it. to do that would, in my opinion, be misappropriation of church funds, a very serious issue. people assume their freely given money makes it to the intended place. the expectation that a mandated offering (well over tithe) would be used as advertised. to a small degree, I can stomach an excessive mandated offering if the purpose has kingdom value and is successful. but, since it is not, you can guess how I will vote at the assembly.
Travis,
When I speak of accountability I mean it in the broadest sense. If you are going to ask leaders who have been put in their position by the General assembly to present the financial reports. That leads me to believe then that all pastors also would be open to present their financial statement to the state office. I think this would be only fair. And my point with my previous statement is that Im not sure some who frequent this site will ever be happy with leadership.
Thats a heart thing not a financial thing.
Be blessed
Chad,
I’ve never told anyone that they couldn’t see my financials. I had an overseer ask for them before. I took a box full of receipts, a budget, and a listing of every single transaction from our bank account. We disclose our information to our church body voluntarily.
We have some states that require every local church to submit an annual audit of their books to the state office. Interesting double standard isn’t it?
Still, disclosure should be the norm. It should be the norm for the state office you work in. It should be the norm for my church. It should be the norm for International Offices. The first person who throws the books open on the international level is going to be a hero. It is going to happen. When it does, it is going to rock the establishment and change the way we function. Watch and see.
Now, with that said, I have three questions for you:
1. Is the General Assembly the highest governing body of the COG?
2. Can the Executive Council, Executive Committee, state office, or a local church add conditions to or ignore General Assembly mandates and still be faithful to the covenant we have with one another?
3. You said, “And my point with my previous statement is that Im not sure some who frequent this site will ever be happy with leadership.” Would you clarify who, specifically the individuals that will never be happy with leadership are?
As far as your closing comment is concerned, I agree. This is absolutely not a financial thing. Our EC isn’t paid extravagantly. This is a heart thing. If I could pass two words up the chain, I would say, “trust us.” Our heart…my heart is to be a son again.
If I am indeed a son, it feels an awful lot like I’m an adversary to my fathers.
Travis,
I agree with you totally that the issues that we are facing as an organization are “trust issues”. There is mis-trust from the ministers to our leaders and there is mis-trust from our leaders to the ministers. I have no idea where the mis-trust started but there needs to be a healing in our church. We need to begin to build a bridge of trust between those in the field and those in positions of leadership.
One way we create trust in the local church is we have full disclosure. We allow the church membership to know where money is being spent. In this way we show them that we are being good stewards with God’s money and that we trust them with the information that we have given them. As far as letting headquarters see the financials of the local church I do not believe that we have a chose in that matter. They have the right to audit our books at any time, and should be able to. With full disclosure rumors and accusations have no legs to stand on. “Agree with your adversary quitly, lest he take you to the judge.”