In about a month, some of us will be heading to Cleveland for Engage 21. There will be panels and some discussion. I’m not sure how much discussion there will be or what the format will allow. But, I’d like to give you the opportunity to ask some questions whether you consider yourself an emerging or a missional leader or not.
When it comes to engaging ministry contextually for the mission of Jesus Christ, what would you like to ask or say?
Filed under: church of god, conference, emerging church, missional church
Can we plant a church without being forced to organize too quickly, just so we have to send the 15% or hopefully, the 10% (after GA)?
I want to start a church, beginning next year. Here’s the reasons I’m considering NOT being COG…
1.The 15% issue.
2.Politics/Nepotism/Top-Down Hierarchy that has little effect on the local church.
3.Lack of freedom in non-essential doctrines, such as initial evidence.
4. I’m just not sure if the COG “gets it” with postmoderism/missional/emerging. Hopefully, Engage 21 will shine some light (even though I can’t make it).
5. I’m not sure if I am a “good fit” in the COG anymore.
6. Headquarters owning local church property. I can’t see the benefit in building something for a local body, just to sign it over to someone else…
Some of my issues are more internal, and things I’m waiting to see. I grew up COG, and would like to stay, but I am really torn as to the benefits of staying. I look at Jamie Noel’s experience with the COG and his church plant, and I just cringe. Why would I want to put myself in that same position? Maybe I just want the COG to prove to me that it’s worth sticking around… Am I wrong for that?
One thing I think I would add is that we have higher standards for our pastors. I see so many pastor that have no business being pastors, but they are around because nobody else wants to take some tiny church in a rinky-dink town where it rains all the time. I think God can change that paradigm. We need our pastors to display a level of education that is higher than they do now. this may not be a problem as you get closer to Lee, but up here, it’s ridiculous. Of the 80+ Senior pastors in the PNW, I can think of 4 pastors that have a bachelors degree of some sort. There are probably a hand full more that I don’t know about. So, lets say there are 12 pastors in 85 with a 4-year degree…that’s about 14% of pastors. today, more and more people are going to college – unlike 50 years ago – and they want to be taught by a person with some higher education. In the PNW, we traditionally, do very poorly in big cities, and I believe that has something to do with the education. People in major metro areas are white collar workers, and don’t want to be taught by a redneck that picked up his preaching credentials in a 9 month course. I tihnk the CIMS is a good start to this, but I don’t see it as the end-all-be-all solution.
As far as a question, I would simply ask: where did you guys come up with 15% tithe?? And if it’s 10% tithe and 5% mandatory offering, the where is that found int he Bible?
I live overseas and am often out-of-the-loop. By the time the mail and print promos arrive, most of the events are already over.
So this is the first that I have heard of “Engage 21″. And having looked at the video several times, I’m still trying to figure out what the meeting is all about.
Obviously, I won’t be able to attend due to the distance/costs. And to be quite honest, based only on this video – I don’t know why I would want to go.
I could come up with lots of questions for the right venue. But without any clear purpose, how can any true dialog begin?
When is the last time many of our denominational leaders have hung out with a non-churched person? I don’t mean joked with the cashier at Wal-mart or gave a dollar to a homeless guy. I mean sat down to dinner and had a conversation with someone who lives outside of the bubble of Christianity? When is the last time they went to a ballgame, or took time to listen to someone who has no interest in church.
Many of or programs are geared toward those who are churched but no longer attend. Most of those getting “saved” are people who decided to rededicate their lives. Look at the number of salvations compared to the number of baptisms in your state paper. Don’t get me wrong, re-dedications, renewals etc are wonderful and we need to call lost sheep home.
When will gear something toward the person who is curious about Jesus but has no desire to be in the subculture of church. We need a move of God not a program with a director who didn’t want to pastor anymore.
These are all fantastic. Please keep them coming. I’m adding the posts to this question that are listed on Acts-celerate as well.
ADDED COMMENTS:
From Rodney Mullins:
We must dismantle a system that facilitates politics. This spirit genders jealousy, hurt and anger in the ministry. The result is deep loneliness and heartbreak. We must esteem every pastor at every level. If he is starting a work he has value. If he is turning a church around he has value. If is a long term pastor of a small Town church he has value. If he is an evangelist with a heart for the lost he has value. If he serves in youth ministry and his name is unknown he has value. We are a number driven denomination and in a number driven community the numbers speak loud and clear of the value of that person.
We must esteem the minister at every level they are in and every season that they are going through. We must be careful not to a judge a man in his season because that season will one day visit all of our lives.
From Jamie Noel:
I think my situation was rare and a result of “bull-headedness” on the part of both sides. You must follow your heart. They cannot force you to organize. Winfield Bevins, one of the other church planters, still has not organized. He gets pressure all the time, but refuses to organize until his church is ready. I wish I would have been as stubborn and not buckled under the pressure of S. Ohio.
As for property issues, there are ways to get around that as some of the COG churches are learning that. This can be discussed privately, though.
If you plant, just file your Articles of Incorporation under your church name. Put nothing about the COG in them. Our lawyer pointed that out for us. He handles property issues for N. Ohio. That is how the COG could not touch any of our assets when we left. We never mentioned them on our Articles. And that was by accident. The only way the COG can get your property is if they underwrite and put their name on the titles and deeds. Other than that, it’s yours.
These are some things to think about.
I LOST PERSPECTIVE! Having grown up in a COG parsonage and preaching my 1st sermon at 18, and pastoring my 1st fulltime church at 23 I never realized how I lost perspective of being unchurched! From 1990 to 2006 I spent in some form of fulltime ministry, mostly pastoring. In 2006, I decided to take a break because we were unclear of our future, and didn’t want to go in the wrong direction. Needless to say, my wife & I had to get secular jobs to pay our bills.
Soon I found myself surrounded by sinners. To my shock, I began meeting people right here in Mecca (Chattanooga, TN) that had never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ or been to a church service. I began developing friendships and relationships with sinners and soon discovered that I was liking them more that the religious people I’d been hanging around and serving for 16 years. Wow!
I began to realize that God had allowed me back into the secular field so I could get my perspective back of reaching the lost. I soon discovered that its not Jesus these unchurched people are turned off to its the people who claim to be His church! Because of my new job in sales, I found myself in coffee shops daily between appointments. The Holy Spirit showed me how many times I blew great opportunities by spending all my time in a church office dealing with religious people when I should have been out in the community developing relationships with sinners.
This generation and culture is not going to someday find their way to our glorious buildings and get it together. They are waiting for those who follow Christ to come to them. My perspective is never going to be the same. Pastors, commit 2 days out of 5 to get outside into your community and start talking to people you don’t know. Just make friends. It will blow your mind what you are going to learn if you do.
I appreciate this thread and all of the comments I have read. However, in a not-so-serious tone, you guys are scaring me to death.
I am nearing 51 years old and have spent 26 years in pastoral ministry in the Assemblies of God. Just this week, I passed the Ordained Bishop’s test here in Indiana with an 85% score. I am praying and seeking God for the future of my life and ministry. After reading this thread and its comments I am not questioning my decision to join the COG, but I am wondering what the right steps are next to have a successful (in God’s view) ministry.
The main problem I had with the A/G was that they didn’t watch their pastor’s backs. I was hoping that in coming into the COG there would be more care for pastors, but from what I’m reading it sounds like the same preacher-eating machine with a different name ( I may be exaggerating here).
If anyone has any advice for me as I’m just getting started in COG ministry, I would appreciate it.
I echo some of the ideas that I am reading here about church planting in the COG. Daystar is going to be launching a new work in a rapidly-growing suburb of Birmingham. We have a sharp pastor who has served on our staff for 5 years, we have a system that we believe will work (as it has worked well for us at Daystar) and we have a core group of Daystar members who are willing to help us start this new work. We are budgeting tens of thousands of dollars from our general budget to support this new church. I have ever confidence that this new church will become a strong church in just a few years.
Actually, I am not against it being a COG, but when I look at the church planter, I wonder why would he make it COG? There is little (if any) money available for church planting through the Alabama state office. What the church planter will build through sweat, tears, and hard work will not belong to the members of the community where he launches. And he will IMMEDIATELY feel the pressure of “organizing” so that he can start losing 15% of his tithes for a system that he likely cannot believe in. So what’s the point?
Now, I could force him to make it a COG, and that would probably make me a little more popular among COG ministers in Alabama. But what would bring greater benefit to the Kingdom of God?
While we will be meeting with the AB of Alabama, in all likelihood this church will be an independant church with an outside 5-fold accountability structure. And, in all likelihood it will become a church equal to a “top 10″ COG church in Alabama in short order.
I have been COG since I was born. I really want to see more strong COG congregations. But it now seems that as a denomination, we have reached a place where it has actually become counter-production to the GREAT COMMISSION to choose COG. Could this be true???
Jerry,
You have hit the nail right on the head! This is the very reason why the Church of God needs a re-formation before it consumes itself and drives all of its children away. The current structure often repels or crushes those who have a heart to plant a church.
The Church of God does have the potential to be a sleek, agile, mission-supporting organism. But the question is, do our leaders have the will and courage to make the structural changes that will bring this potential into reality?
As you can tell… I’m a dreamer!
Let me start with this….prior to moving to Tennessee I had never even heard of the Church of God, but through various circumstances and heeding the voice of God, here I am, a Pastor in this system. My grievance is not personal by any means, as some seem to be, because any wounds I would have from this system can not and do not run very deep. More than anything my vantage point is one from an outsiders perspective. I grew up catholic, and in this system of popes, ritual, confession, and “church” attendance I learned very quickly what religious form and function looked liked. Often the giving of money and just showing up was considered enough, and you rose through the ranks by way of who you knew, not by the particular calling on your life, or even your ability to minister…Sound familiar? I enjoy reading these threads and even the passion behind them. I see that there are some from my generation (I’m 26) and the one before me who have a desire for something more….something greater. But will resolve ourselves to simply be unhinged about the issues of our denomination, and talk between one another about how it should be; or will we rather prayerfully and diligently seek the necessary changes to this organization to see it become missional in its function, pure in its appointments, and righteous in its stewardship? That is the question I would ask at engage 21…but also one I would ask here.
Hey guys, let me give you an exciting update on our new church plant.
From my earlier post, you can see that we are going to launch a new church in a suburb of Birmingham later this year. This community is the fastest growing municipality in Alabama. According to the 2000 census, there are only about 2,200 residents in the town. However, today there are about 15,000 and state officials estimate the population will baloon to 30,000 in the next 5 years. Again, these numbers do not represent the greater Birmingham community, just this small “bedroom” community. We are very excited about the prospects of this community.
Well, today we met with the Mayor and a school principal where we hope to hold worship activities. In addition to getting 100% support from the mayor (who incidentally, actually witnessed to us in the meeting!), we also had a great meeting with the principal. They will be willing to let us use the school on weekends and week nights. We can store our equipment there, use their chairs, video projectors, and more. And here is the best part – THERE WILL BE NO COST FOR USING THE SCHOOL!!! This is amazing considering the fact that two other churches are meeting in commnity schools and they are both paying $1,500/mo. We would have been happy to walk away with that figure, but today God just blew our minds! It’s good to have friends in high places!!!
Please keep us in your prayers. This is a new venture for Daystar Church and we can already see God making a way for us.
That is incredible….God is so awesome. I will be praying all continues to be blessed…
Great stuff, Jerry. I’m so psyched up about our second site, I have butterflies when I think about it. Its such a beautiful thing to have the privilege to be involved in the Kingdom of Jesus!
Jerry – That is so cool…your team has to be really jazzed. Make sure you journal all the steps…it’s gonna be a great testimony and encouragement to others!
Travis,
I do not see any women featured at this conference. If we are to be true to the mission (both of Christ and our own denomination), then we cannot continue keeping our sisters on the sideline. Both scripture and history show the vital role women played in the early Church, and some of the earliest church planting in the COG was by women (including numerous churches by your own ancestor– Ida McCoy).
Don’t get me wrong… I’m very excited that we have this opportunity. But, I am sad that we have once again forgotten the women. I can think of several who would make a great contribution here. I was speaking with someone about this the other day and they immediately said, “Jackie Johns!”
So, one thing I would ask is, “When are we going to get back to allowing women do have a rightful place in ministry?” I would argue that we do not really believe in the priesthood of all believers as we claim, because we focus so much on the credentialed ministry (and in that area we are extremely limiting on the women). Just my thoughts…
Since I was half asleep when I posted that, I wrote Jackie instead of Cheryl. Sorry about that. I can tell them apart– I promise!
But for the record, I think Jackie would be a great person to be involved in this discussion as well.
Travis, i am hoping to be there to ask this, but with such a large disdain for institutional structure that seems to be sweeping not only the COG but other denominations, people are leaving these and looking for a more missional, apostolic type government. they are looking for these in “house church” type settings. how will the COG embrace this form of church? will they embrace this or throw it out as rebellion? i have been doing much reading in this and since moving back to SC, we have been contemplating establishing several locations such as this. not necessarily in homes but schools, pubs, and other possible areas with groups no larger than 50-75 adults and multiple sites.
Hello. It is test.
There are 5 houses in five different colors
In each house lives a different nationality.
These 5 owners drink a certain beverage, smoke a certain brand of cigar and keep a certain pet.
No owners have the same pet, smoke the same brand of cigar, or drink the same beverage.
The CLUES:
The Brit lives in the Red house.
The Swede keeps dogs as pets.
The Dane Drinks tea.
The Green House is on the left of the White House.
The Green House’s owner drinks coffee.
The person who smokes Pall Mall rears birds.
The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhill.
The man in the center house drinks milk.
The Norwegian lives in the first house.
The man who smokes Blends lives next to the one who keeps cats
The man who keeps horses lives next to the man who smokes Dunhill.
The man who smokes Blue Master drinks beer.
The German smokes Prince.
The Norwegian lives next to the Blue House.
The man who smokes Blends has a neighbor who drinks water.
The QUESTION:
Who owns the fish?
The German owns the fish
No… The Norwegian owns the fish
The Norge lives in the yellow, drinks water, and smokes Dunhill while raising fish.
Ah…. After praying about it, i feel convicted in my spirit. It is the German who owns the fish, owns the green house, drinks lots of coffee.
Jonathan, you know that Claudia thinks she owns my fish (and everything else in our house
So, Jonathan, did you work that out for yourself? Or did you cheat like I did?
Apparently Einstein said that 98% of people couldn’t work out that problem.
I think it’s the South African… wait, was there a South African? Man, I’m so ADD.
Nick- cheat? No way, what would be the fun in that? I graphed it to figure it out, didn’t do it in my head- not sure if that is cheating.
Brit- Red House, Bird, Milk, Pall Malls
.
Swede- White House, Dog, Beer, Blue Master
Dane- Blue House, Horses, Tea, Blends
Norwegian- Yellow House, Cats, Water, Dunhill
German- Green, FISH, Coffee- as Tom mentioned, but he didn’t mention that the German smokes Prince…I think he’s worried about his license
Tom- Claudia DOES own it all- the nest is hers…just like Daniela owns our house. Whoever said “a man home is HIS castle” died a lonely hermit
Jonathan – Amen to that! I recently got a new, bigger TV (to replace our old 19 inch one) for the living room. I was thinking, “Yes! THIS is my football TV!” But, alas, it stays on Food Network and the Sprout Channel (for my little girl), and I watch football on the 19 inch TV in the other room.
=)
A good marriage is built on compromise.
Janice watches her programs on the 42 inch screen, but I made sure the motorized leather recliner sits in front of the 29 inch screen.
Everyone’s happy.
(This post was made while reclining at a horizontal angle with one eye on Aston Villa -v- WBA).
Ha, that reminds me. I need a new recliner! Donations can be made at kevinwalkerblog.com. Hehe.